Re: Nov. meeting with Squeak team--call for discussion

[Scott Raney <raney@metacard.com>]

On Thu, 30 Sep 1999 rnd@sampo.karelia.ru wrote:

> 
> On Wed, 29 Sep 1999, Scott Raney wrote:
> 
> >>         1. As a tool for teachers to develop applications that students
> >>                 will use.
> >> 
> >>         2. As a tool for students to develop applications that embody
> >>                 the non-computer skills they are learning (I suppose 
> >>                 this is what everybody means by "authoring").
> >> 
> >>         3. As a tool to teach computer programming.
> >> 
> >> Of course, I'd welcome any other sorts of advice as well.
> >
> >1) Browse the HyperStudio WWW site and download a demo of it from
> 
> What  about  SuperCard,  Macromedia  Director,  ...  HyperCard?

All of these would be worth looking at too, as well as products like
Digital Chisel (www.pierian.com) and even presentation tools like
PowerPoint and the presentation tools in Star Office and other
integrated packages.

> Probably HS is dominant, but IMHO not most convenient of  them.
> (As for me, I tried SC and HC on Macs, HS has the worse  "look"
> and "feel" and scripting.

Agreed, but that hasn't stopped it from becoming *overwhelmingly* more
popular than any of the alternatives.

> >   http://www.rwp.com/  It doesn't run on Linux, but it's the dominant
> >   product in this area.  You should probably look at one or more of
> >   the Logo products (e.g., http://www.microworlds.com/)
> >2) Download a copy of the MetaCard Starter Kit and the MetaTalk
> >   Programmer package from the MetaCard WWW site
> >   http://www.metacard.com/  The current UI doesn't look like
> >   HyperStudio, but one that does could be constructed very easily (a
> >   miniscule fraction of what would be required to do the same with
> >   Squeak).  And it runs on Linux now, could be used to build and
> >   distribute a freeware HyperStudio-like product, and even the full
> >   version of which is less expensive than HyperStudio.
> 
> Yes, Squeak is a little bit bloated (due to the fact that it is
> very-very object-oriented and too easy to bloat), but  I  think
> it is not very hard to cut Squeak alittle  down  to  the  level
> where it will match MetaCard.

I might quibble with the "not very" part, but it's not just a matter
of cutting down, you'd have to add a lot of stuff too (like a
card-based file format, which is no small undertaking).

> I do not believe Logo is a proper language for  HyperCard  like
> products. (And I am familiar with some older HS version).

Agreed.  But although I personally like Smalltalk, especially as a
teaching language, I don't agree that it's a very good choice for K12
students.  I also think that points 1 and 2 above are pretty distinct
from point 3 and it may not practical to produce one tool that's good
for all three.  Certainly the vendors of HyperStudio (was Roger Wagner
publishing, is now Knowledge Adventure) make very little attempt to
address point 3.  The other Logo products focus mostly on 3.

> Then, Squeak is more or less open source, as I understood.  And
> this is what is most valuable in connection with Linux.

Valuable, yes.  But to say that it's better to do without than to
produce a package that's not 100% open source is letting your
philosophy get in the way of what's best for the students (or even for
the Linux community as a whole).  I personally believe that a
HyperStudio-like product is one of a handful of key tools that must be
in place before Linux stands a chance at displacing Macs or Windows
PCs in schools.  Without such a tool, I fear the whole project is
doomed.

> I have not explored Squeak very far, but what  I  saw  gave  me
> impression, that everything in Squeak are objects and thus they
> can be simplified for those who do not need all power.

Potentially yes.  But as has been discovered many times over with the
other Smalltalk environments, this kind of thing is very difficult to
do because the objects are so interdependent.  Certainly you'd have to
be a level 20 wizard at the tool before you'd have even a chance at
succeeding at a project like this.  Does anyone considering working on
this project qualify?
  Regards,
    Scott

> Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi
> --
> Russia * Karelia * Petrozavodsk * rnd@rsuzi.pgu.karelia.ru
> * Thursday, September 30, 1999 * Powered by Linux RedHat 6.0
> * "Plagiarism prohibited, derive carefully."
> 

********************************************************
Scott Raney  raney@metacard.com  http://www.metacard.com
MetaCard: You know, there's an easier way to do that...