Re: Commentry on A call for a vote on the Rating System.

[Steve Baker <sjbaker1@airmail.net>]

Chris wrote:

> >  2) We have FIVE icons: EC, E, T, M, AO corresponding to the ESRB
> > definitions
> >     for Early Childhood, Everyone, Teens, Mature and Adult-Only. I
> > suggest
> >     we drop the NR (Not Rated Yet) icon because with a self-rated system
> >     it's unnecessary.
> 
> Have you checked whether these will violate ESRB's trademarks? I expect it
> could be argued that any rating system which uses the same letters as the
> ESRB system could be sued for trademark infringment: trademarks are there to
> identify a mark with an entitity, by using the same letters as ESRB they
> could probably argue that we were trying to use their rating system in
> violation of their trademarks.

That's possible - in which case (as I proposed) we'd change whatever is
necessary to make it legal.  We just need to open a thesaurus and come
up with some other letters.

Personally, I doubt you could trademark that...but you are right - we
should check.
 
> This is my major concern with the single letter mark, it opens the door to
> trademark infringment suits by ESRB (just as showing only a single U, PG,
> 12, 6, 18 could get us into hot water with the BBFC, or four boxes with
> ages in would with ELSPA).

Yes - but if you looked everywhere in the world you'd find that every letter
of the alphabet would be used somewhere.

I think that so long as we make it very clear (via different iconography
and the O.G.R.E name) that this isn't the ESRB scheme, we should be OK.
 
> >  3) Our system is named "OGRE" and the icons are some kind of cute ogre
> >     of an appropriate age holding a banner or wearing a T-shirt or
> 
> This may significantly increase the amount of time it will take to produce
> the images, more on that once I've had a word with the artist (my brother
> to be exact..) I will try for that sort of system though.

Well, if we can find someone who is willing and able to do it - I don't think
the time it takes is (by itself) an issue - there is no urgency here.

> >  5) We encourage members of cultures who do not approve of the ESRB
> > system
> >     or who have special ratings needs to design and promote their own
> >     parallel systems.
> 
> Problem 2 - how do they do this while remaining consistent with the OGRE
> graphics system and ensuring that the cultural differences are plain?

I was really just suggesting that they could come up with a totally non-OGRE
system - but *IF* someone wanted to do this and add (say) Chinese-culturally-
relevent ratings, then I don't see why we couldn't accomode that - I think
we'd need to discuss it if/when it happened.

> If we
> just have the ogre picture with a sign/emblem or whatever there is no way
> to communicate these differences. Please don't even suggest putting the OGRE
> in national dress ;)))

Doh!
 
> However, I could modify my current image, stick the ogre image in the middle
> where the rating display is currently and then where it now says "Rating"
> different cultures could change that to something meaningful for them - so
> it'd look like
> 
> OGRE         OGRE       OGRE
> .-------.    .-------.  .-------.
> |       |    |       |  |       |
> |  pic  |    |  pic  |  |  pic  |
> |       |    |       |  |       |
> `-------'    `-------'  `-------'
>    Rating        Hindu      China
> 
> or something like that.

Yes - but we can cross that bridge if/when we come to it IMHO.  We wouldn't
really want this to happen in too fragmentary a fashion though.  I think we
could get a large proportion of OpenSource authors to have a quick think about
their game and what basic OGRE rating it deserves - and then stick one icon
on their web page and call it a done-deal.

If Authors have to think about whether they need a High-Caste-only sticker (or
whatever) for India and a For-Men-Only sticker for Kuwait...I think you start
to get into great difficulties.   A 'For Men Only' sticker would probably be
illegal in the USA and some European countries where sexual discrimination is
illegal...but in some Arab countries there are strict moral restrictions on
what each sex may or may not participate in - and a 'For Men Only' label would
probably be considered highly appropriate for certain kinds of games *ACCORDING
TO THEIR CULTURE*.

I truly don't want to get embroiled in that *AT ALL*...so I'm just happy to
promote a standard that cultures I understand will both appreciate and support -
and let people who want to promote other cultural standards deal with that
on their own.

We need an answer to the question "Why does the OGRE standard allow {such-and-such}
to be seen by {so-and-so} group of people?"  - the answer is:  "If you don't like
our standard - go make your own and promote it just like we did for our culture."

----------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------------
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