SEUL: Re: Very good points and examples in your paper!

[Roger Dingledine <arma@mit.edu>]

> Hi Arma,
> 
> Thank you very much for the address of your paper on the web.
> 
> It has some very good points, and examples that help back up the notion that
> Free Software is better than Proprietary Software.
> 
> If you don't mind, I'd like to use some of the arguments and examples in my
> paper that I'm concocting for presentation at USENIX.

go for it. keep in mind, tho, that i'm going to be revamping the paper quite
a bit in the next week or two, as well as coming up with one that is more
specifically targetted at end-users (this one is *definitely* not. they don't
care about business models, etc.) what is your time-frame for the talk?
 
> You can be assured you will receive credit for your ideas! 
> 
> One of the driving forces behind writing free software (among other things) is
> the idea of an economy of "egoboo" as Eric Raymond puts it: The idea that
> programmers want to be held in high esteem by their peers for their works.
> Egoboo refers to the "Ego Boost" that a given programmer gets when he gets
> attention and admiration from other programers, users, etc. for writing a
> particularly very well written, useful, or just plain "cool" program. I attended
> Eric Raymond's "Homesteading the Noosphere" talk at the Atlanta Linux Showcase
> '98. And heard his talk on "The Cathedral and the Bazaar", via real audio, as
> well as heard a "Cathedral and the Bazaar" debate between Eric Raymond and
> Marshall Kirk McKusick (godfather if you will of the BSD "camp" :) at USENIX
> '98. Very good ideas Eric and McKusick have. 
> 
> But I think the idea of GPL Free should be stressed. I think the idea of
> releasing Mozilla as non-gpl was a mistake. 

this is (well, it's presented as) a very short-sighted view. they were taking
into account many more things than simply what would be best for the source --
they needed to cover their ass(et)s, their lawyers weren't comfortable with
actually freeing the source, they wanted to be able to use it for their
purposes later, they had industry pressures, etc.

In terms of getting more people to help out with the code, it wasn't just a
matter of the license -- it was much more a matter of the code quality that
they actually released -- i couldn't compile that thing, and it was a big mess.
i definitely got the impression that people were going to have to perform
black magic to turn that into a functional browser, and i don't do black magic
on other peoples' code.
 
> Perhaps in the wake of Jamie Zawinski leaving Netscape/AOL, the license of
> Mozilla will be changed to GPL... so that development on it can progress in a
> true Free Software manner, and be spurred by growth from in influx of
> programmers who have been holding out for a GPL'd and more free version.

where are these programmers? do they really exist? i recognize that debian has
some license fanatics, but are they really that useful/influential?
 
> But Open Source is better than nothing. Heck, Debian uses the "DFSG" Debian Free
> Software Guidelines, to determine what software can and can't be included in the
> main part of the distribution. And interestingly, IIRC, the definition of "Open
> Source" is that it is a service mark for software whose licenses meet or exceed
> the DFSG, or Debian Free Software Guidelines. You know that Bruce Perens (former
> Debian Project Leader) and Ian Murdock (founder of Debian) now work with OSI,
> Open Source Initiative, that was started by Eric Raymond. And of course the
> Debian Free Software Guidelines went along for the ride. :) [there was a spat at
> Debian a while back and some bridges were apparently burnt or something to that
> effect... a sad case of events... I hope personal differences can be resolved,
> or at least dealt with in a respectful, and appropriate way, and not get in the
> way of progress!] but I digress... GPL free, IMHO, is better all around. I can
> live with DFSG, but I feel more comfy, cozy, and warm and fuzzy with GPL. :)
> 
> Well back to the regularly scheduled program:
> 
> In order to spur your thought, and creativity, I will increase your egoboo by a
> few, by adding your name and email address to my "credits" list, so that you
> will be more likely to produce even more good thought and writings on Free
> Software! :)

wow. you're very kind. :)
 
> Can you give me your name, and any other information about yourself that I can
> add to the "bibliography" of my paper?

Roger Dingledine (arma@mit.edu, arma@seul.org, arma@linuxunited.org,
  roger@realms.org, arma@doomcom.com, soon to be arma@debian.org if i get my
  act together)
I'm finishing my fourth year (of five) at MIT, after which I'll have a BS in
CS/EE, a BS in math, and an M.Eng. in CS/EE. I can provide you some more info
if you tell me what you're after.
 
> Also, here is a rough draft of my "paper in progress":
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/3328/brocks-free-software-paper.txt
> 
> Please have a read some time when you are able, and if you have any new ideas,
> new angles on the arguments, new information, find any flaws in my arguments,
> totally new arguments altogether, etc. please let me know!

i've cc'ed this to seul-pub in case some of the other seul people want to read
your paper. again, what's your time-frame?

--roger
 
> Thanks once again for the thoughts in your paper!
> 
> --Brock Lynn
> 
> ---------------------  PGP key ID: FED76A3D <brock@cyberdude.com> 4 / 5 / 1999
> 
>    __ _    Debian GNU           R. Brock Lynn <brock@cyberdude.com>
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