Re: SEUL: Survey writing volunteers needed

[Roger Dingledine <arma@mit.edu>]

In message <Pine.GSO.3.96.980604235623.9302A-100000@pegasus.rutgers.edu>, elflord@pegasus.rutgers.edu writes:
>On Thu, 4 Jun 1998, Roger Dingledine wrote:
>> I'm looking for a few volunteers who are familiar with survey
>> techniques (or can learn). I'm very interested in coming up with a
>> large survey that would figure out once and for all what end-users
>> want in an OS. If it was
>
>Talking about what users want is a pointless exercise until someone
>actually does something about it , like write a program (helping users
>configure their system) , package some software (help users find and
>install application software ) , write some documentation (help users
>_use their application software ), like, do something that will really
>help. (personally, I've done all 3 ... ) 
>
>I am not talking about this proposal in particular as much as I am
>talking about SEUL in general. I just don't see any concrete evidence
>that any real work is taking place, and am beginning to wonder whether
>SEUL is a serious project or a social club. If any real work has been
>done, it might be worth saying something about it . 

I'm going to be short and blunt here. I don't feel like wasting your
time any more than you feel like wasting mine.

First of all, I reference you to
http://www.seul.org/archives/seul/project/Mar-1998/msg00036.html
Please read it before continuing.

Currently, the seul-project list is empty of activity because we don't
want to put any activity on it -- most threads generally end up as
flames (ahem), so we ignore it. We've done what every project should do --
we've gone into a small group of people to keep getting actual work done,
rather than sit here bickering (ahem).

Currently useful products include sdoc (seul document parser, mostly
used internally at this point, though it's starting to be used by a
couple other sites), proclog (it's kicking around on our ftpsite, but
I discontinued work on it a while ago before I decided somebody else
was doing it better in the form of LogWatch), Twoducks' help system which
is actually quite advanced (look at the dev-help section of the website
under www.seul.org/dev/help/ at the help engine, as well as draft taskhelp
documents, though I believe he has a bad link there and has been working
on progress rather than fixing the website), The WhyLinux document, SEUL
Manifesto, and associated faq's, the XDM loop-o-death bugfixes under
dev/ui (ack, I just noticed those were broken links too -- Simon? (they're
in the dev-ui archives)), a draft install spec in the dev-install group.
We have an advanced set of scripts for CVS management, which several
other projects are looking at right now to help their management.

Also, there's the core/layers spec under dev/distrib, which is actually
a major project these days.

In addition, look at www.geda.seul.org, www.freehdl.seul.org, and
www.wxftp.seul.org for affiliated and supported projects.

You seem to have the opinion that unless an rpm of binaries to download
is created, nothing has been done. And that's fine -- you should be
working with Independence, where they're actually creating them.
Independence seems to be doing a good job at what it's trying to do.

SEUL isn't going to be creating a distribution anytime soon. In fact,
there are those of us who don't believe SEUL is the appropriate 
organization to be making a distribution -- we have our hands full with
the advocacy and organizational issues that let projects like
Independence focus entirely on the packaging aspects. They both need
to be done. (Read that last sentence again, please.)

If the core/layers specification works out, and our partnership with
the FreeLinux project works out (they're building a linux distribution
of their own), then a reference implementation of the core/layers spec
will exist, and that aspect of seul's job will have been taken care
of.

>it ? does it exist or is it vapour ? if it exists, where is the URL ?
>What progress has been made in the last month ? in the last three
>months ? etc. If such evidence exists, make it public. Post weekly or
>monthly progress reports to the list, and put them on the website.  If
>no such evidence exists, then I guess you're just a social club after
>all. 

If you follow freshmeat, LWN (we've been in it a majority of weeks over
the past month or two, sometimes in several different places), etc, you'll
recognize that progress is being made. I'm trying not to spam the
seul-announce list except with major progress reports that I think would
be interesting to them.

If you'd like to become more informed about what we're doing in SEUL,
please send me mail and let me know how you can help out.

Please do not post aggressive trolls like this. We have enough on our
hands already.

Thanks,
--Roger