Re: SEUL: Re: Resignation as seul-install leader

[Milan Zimmermann <mzimmerm@worldchat.com>]

jfm2@club-internet.fr wrote:
> 
> Aldo.
> 
> Why all distributions from Debian to Caldera just suck?  Because they
> are designed by people who lerned Unix in universities so they are
> just unable to figure what are the problems met by new Linux users.
> Linux users have not the opportunity of a gentle introduction to Unix.
> >From the start they have to become involved in system administartion
> and sometimes kernel recompiling.  So I am mad when I see a
> distribution who does not try hard to make than kernel recompilings no
> longer be a necessity: kernel compilings can make a potentaial user
> flee.  I am mad when I see a distribution assume than we have LANs at
> home.  I am mad when I see a distrib assuming than all people live in
> USA where phone is cheap so they can read news online.  I am mad when
> I see a distribution assuming all people will like LateX and not
> trying to find a Wysywyg for their users.

Yes. Your message is one of these I agree with everything you say. Like
reading a great book. 

>I am mad because all these
> things translate into users returning to DOS in frustration.  So I am
> not in awe in front of distribution developpers.
> 
...
> Another point is learn to think like an end user: do not look how
> great is your distribution.  Ask yourself one thing: How far is that
> distribution from allowing my sister going to Linux.  Because the day
> your sister will be able to use Linux IT WILL BE THE END OF MICROSOFT.
> At times it seems than I am the only one in this list knowing his
> sister is NOT a real man.

Even an OS educated sister may have a problem going Linux as it is now.
I am a developer (used UNIX quite a bit) I installed Linux (Debian)  8
month ago. I love it, but still do not use it as much as I should. Why?
I needed PPP connection. Couple of days of work. Network Card: Another 2
days.  I still do not have sound for Kids games. I am not willing to
spend the time learning and doing the compile. I AND OTHERS JUST DO NOT
HAVE THE TIME TO INSTALL/SETUP LINUX. Lets remember: Things take a lot
of time to do for the first time.

I tried to persuade my boss to try Linux. We bought Caldera and after 2
day effort it did not install. Do you think we will be using it in the
office instead of Windows 95?

The really BROAD use of Linux really comes down to this:

1. Easy of installation, including auto-configuration.
2. Easy, fully graphical software configuration.
3. Never show the command line, unless user wants it.
4. Office - type Applications. This is not as important, as people can
buy good ones for reasonable prices.

Your idea to piggy back on other distributions is great.

I do not have experince with miscelaneous distributions, but: If we
could just start with packaging EXISTING, available pieces into eh,
"more user friendly, simple Linux distribution", the world would be
easier place to live in. Then we would evaluate what is still missing
and take it from there.

> 
> Third: When you see another distribution do not look at it trying to
> find than your distro is better or if something is broken but what are
> the ideas in it. Take a lokk at Redhat: they are a commercial company,
> they have contracts with resellers or CD manufacturers so at times
> they can be forced to ship before being completely ready (in addition
> this time they tried to have RH hit the stands the same day all around
> the world and that shortened debugging).  So when they introduce big
> changes you can be hit by some grave bugs.  But in RH 4.0 they built
> their distrib around kernel modules and kerneld and built the kernel
> to have full networking out of the box: no kernel recompilings when
> you installed Linux in a company.  Some users got bitten by some CD
> modules not working properly when loaded with kerneld and being unable
> to install.  I was one of them.  I found a way around and in the
> meantime RH had the driver of my CD fixed by Alan Jones they had just
> hired.  In RH 5.0 they had made possible to get sound support
> (GAAAMES!!!) without kernel recompiling, in addition they are trying
> to have the configuration software autodetecting the hardware.  Even
> if there are still some people for whom it does not work this is the
> way to go if we want to spread Linux.
> 
> Most ideas I have exposed are pretty obvious if you apply those four
> principles.
> 
> Also understand than I _hate_ civil wars between Linuxers.  The Debian
> people have far too much indulged in attacks against other distribs
> (look at the archives and count attacks against Debain and attacks
> from Debianners against rest of world).  For me a distrib with
> features discouraging the end user does not make me happy: at times I
> dream of forming a commando, fall on Slackware and fix it because
> there are people getting burned in Slackware and believing all Linux
> is like this.
> 
> About me returning some things would need to change: a clear decision
> process, getting things moving, forgetting about distribution
> rivalries and having leaders looking seriously at their distribs.  In
> addition I still think SEUL is too heavy for this phase so I prefer
> Independence.  That does not mean than if I have a good idea I would
> not post it to SEUL.
> 
> But listen in France they say anger is a bad councelor but for me it
> has sharpened my wits.
> 
> I think I have made two crucial breakthroughs: the software repository
> and the piggy backed distribution.
> 
> We are facing two problems: getting things moving in a way than every
> person will know they are moving.  There are a kind of dynamics in
> this kind of project: people don't work until than the project is
> moving.  So put things in movement by assigning a job who would be
> useful to all the Linux community and than nearly everyone can do:
> packaging.
> 
> That is were the repository is useful: we would provide the users with
> software than the distrib developpers are too traditionalistic to
> include in their distribs because they are thinking in LANs or LaTeX.
> Users don't know were this software is or even if it exists.
> 
> Biut for SEUL members this is the kind of job than can put the things
> to move because packaging is relatively easy (easier than programming)
> and those people not packging could try to find and eveluate software
> so you can start tomorrow (that is I will be doing).
> 
> It would be possible to have part of SEUL building DPKGs, another part
> making the proper for Slackware (not than there is much to do for a
> Slack package) while Indepedence packages for the RPM-based distribs.
> It would be possible to trade info between SEUL and Indepedence about
> softwrea or tricks to improve the package.  More important we would
> help everyone whatever distrib they are using (we would cover
> Slack, Debian and all the RPM-based distribs).
> 
> The other problem is how to put SEUL in the hands of end users.  SEUL
> target users are not like those of SLS in 93 were people with a modem
> were downloading Linux, they are not like people of Debian buying CDs
> from CheapBytes.  SEUL users _NEED_ paper doc and they will get their
> Linux distribs from conventional bookstores (the ones with a computer
> department selling "Macs for dummies") not in geeks stores.  But here
> we have a chicken and egg problem: until we get SEUL in stores we
> don't get users so no vendor would be interested by it, but without
> vendor no stores.  Here is where the idea of an installer piggy
> backing over the CD of a conventional distribution can allow us to get
> our first users.  Notice however than that distrib must be one than
> Joe User would find in non-geek stores.
> 
> But now look: thanks the repository you have got the software you
> needed (sometimes carried to yoy by previous users), with luck you
> have got some of your "customers" fixing some brain damaged
> distribution-specific config software.  All remaining to do is
> building the installator.  Yes it is the last thing to build not the
> first.
> 
> Independence is going RPM and piggy backing over RedHat.  Obviously if
> you want to build upon Debian piggy backing makes little sense but I
> think the software repository can get SEUL moving and that you would
> be better to let the installator for last phase.
> 
> Also notice than the Repository would be useful no matter if SEUL and
> Indepdence ever become full distribs.  And than it can be done _NOW_.
> 
> --
>                         Jean Francois Martinez
> 
> The worthy man is the one who would drink muddy water if such were the
> water of truth.

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