Re: SEUL: SEUL duplicating efforts?

[Kevin Forge <forgeltd@pop.netaddress.usa.net>]

Cyberdyn wrote:
> 
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> 
> On 15-Feb-98 Kevin Forge wrote:
> - -> I was trying to make this point.  Any Fail-safe can fail.  And because
> - -> of there complexity it's near impossible to make an unbreakable GUI
> - -> How are you going to prevent a user from telling his computer that
> - -> his old ( pree PnP ) NEC 14" monitor is actually a 21" Monitor of the
> - -> same vintage ?  There must be a way out that works weather or not the
> - -> GUI thinks it's broken.  This escape must leave him in a position to
> - -> easily configure his system.
> 
> You seem to be missing mine and Orn's point.  Are my posts getting through here
> or what?
> 
> We have both told everyone that the initial X setup will be in a mode that
> works on about every machine capable of running Linux to begin with.  This
> makes it impossible for their X to fail or go into the loop-o-death.
> 
> I don't care what monitor you're using it will display standard VGA.
>  Orn pointed out that he had EGA at some point, but if a person is using an EGA
> monitor s/he will be quite used to setting it up manually.  I don't think we're
> going to find any of our target users using anything below a VGA monitor.  We
> can always have a question in the Install that asks if they are using the
> inferior monitor types to insure not putting them into a hostile environment
> for that monitor.
> 
> The majority, if not all, will be at least SVGA.  This means forcing them into
> VGA to do setup will insure there isn't any problem.  We can then bump them up
> a step at a time with scripts and timeouts that will reset the config to the
> previous working config if they try to use settings that don't work.
> 
> Windows 95 does the same thing.  The only way it gets a monitor setup correctly
> is that 95 drivers are normally shipped with new hardware.  We can place an
> option in the menu that says "setup new hardware" since most users are used to
> that.  Then take them back to bottom and start again unless there's an exact
> match.  Given that they are installing *new* harware at this point it will be
> much easier to get *correct* info from them to aid the setup process.
> 
> - -> IE.. "type setup at the prompt and get a menu to select what you wish
> - -> to configure ( It will ask you for root password ),  You can then
> - -> select 'X Windows' ( Linux people don't like that name ... but it's
> - -> catchy ).
> 
> It's X Window not X Windows.  I catch myself saying the same thing.  Not
> because it's catchy, but because Bill had me brainwashed for many years and
> there are relics in my brain =)
> 
> It's just as easy to get somebody setup in a GUI environment as it is to get
> them setup from a console or shell menu.
> 
> Dude fires up SEUL for the first time and is left at a shell menu like pdmenu
> for the first time.  He's already wondering about Linux at this point.  He
> drives on and uses the setup option to get his GUI configured.  He can't get
> his hardware setup correctly and is stuck at this shell menu.
> 
> He gets ppp up and goes into email.  He's used to using Netscape mail or
> Internet mail and isn't at all impressed by this  mail client.  He emails us to
> ask for help setting up his display.  I would say we can get it working at this
> point after sending mail back and forth for a day or so.  If he remains patient.
> 
> Dude fires up SEUL in a GUI/XDM for the first time but can't get a better
> display than VGA, he loggs in and gets a nice display with preset menus etc.
> He likes what he sees and can't wait until he can get his display setup to work
> in a higher resolution.  He goes into email, some graphical email client
> undetermined at this point, he emails us and we work with him on getting it
> hooked up.  *BUT* the entire time he is in a GUI which tells him it's just a
> matter of getting it configured for his hardware.  If he has this problem to
> begin with, he most likely had the same problem in Windows.  Although the
> vendors drivers made it easier to configure.  He is still aware that his setup
> is *special* and needs to be worked.
> 
> If he knows this and is kept in text mode he will be nervous the entire time
> that his *special* hardware just won't work under Linux and will be thinking of
> just going back to Windows the entire time.
> 
> Placed in VGA mode he will not be nervous since he is setup and can do what he
> wants to do, he just has to get it configured to use his hardware efficiently
> to give him a better display.  But he is still able to use all the software on
> his system.
> 
I provide tech support for Windows.  I know very well how easy it is for
a user to force his machine into a mode it can't handle ( you noticed I
specifically chose 2 old NEC monitors ? ... This actually happened with 
Win 95 and the user had to go to safe mode to get it working ).
Until you can get XDM to a point where the user can tell it to start in
VGA mode ( i.e. the same mechanism that starts fsck if you didn't shut
down 
properly could be used to prompt you with "The PC did not shut down
properly
last time ... do you want to start in vga mode ?"

You may notice I am less hostile to XDM ? ... As long as there is an out
that will give the user a VGA scean or a TEXT screen at his desecration
it can work.

Speaking of which ... When XDM is working properly dose it allow you to 
do C+A+f1 and get a full screen text mode ?  This is essential in my
setup
because I have a .28 DP 15" Monitor running at 1024*768.  This means raw
text looks a lot better on the console than in X
-- 
: "Through the firewall, out the router, down the T1, across the
: backbone, bounced from satellite, Nothing but net."