Re: My doubts about Debian choice

[jfm2@club-internet.fr]

> 
> Þann 10-Feb-98 skrifar jfm2@club-internet.fr:
> > 
> > An now I will explain why I want SEUL _fast_.  The rest (my resistance
> > to Debian) is only a consequence than I believe Debian is not the
> > shortest path.
> > 
>   That's understandable... but the only thing, that really is RH in
> what would be used from RH, is the rpm.  And, AFAIK, we'll be using it
> as well as dpkg.  Most of the others think that starting with Debian
> is the fastest way to get started.
> 

And the hardware autodetection, and the automounting of file systems,
and the kernel able to cope in any role out of the box so you don't
need to recompile, and many, many things that are in RedHat that are
not in Debain and than my sister would want.  Please, if you think
than Debian lacks few fetaures respective to RH5 in the user
friendliness field write a review of Debian.  And don't forget about
the exam.

And the fact than there are _much_ more end user software already
packaged in RPM format than in DPKG and than that software is only
waiting to be picked if we choose RPM but than we will have to build
DPKGs for it from scratch.




> > 
> > Is that a possibility?  Yes.
>   No, it isn't.
> 
>   I understand your concerns, but understand that the people who are
> using Windows NT, are the people who previously used PC's and discovered
> that it wasn't enoough.
> 
>   It may well be that Bill Gates, calls his system a New Technology, but
> it really isn't.  And as a server system, sorry... nobody with decent
> technical knowledge would put it up.  You put it up in places, where there
> is little need for security or stability, and where you don't want to
> place adminstrators... small companies.  These places would never have
> bought Unix anyway.
> 
>   Even on Alpha, Windows NT is just a poor mans tool, with good looking
> frame.  And it doesn't match a Sun or SGI Servers or Workstations at any
> level.
> 

You are thinking in technicval terms not in money terms.  Home PCs are
becoming powerful enough to run NT.  That will make the price of NT
apps drop still lower.  Think also in the people being being
brainwashed.  And in this disturbing fact: the library where I find
foreign computing books and Linux distribs (a computer books only
library) has cut its Unix stand by half last month.

Also the Unix front is not united.  In any case I do not want to have
to rely on IBM or Sun for keeping Linux alive (by the fact than they
keep Unix alive) because it is not strong enough to survive without
commercial Unixes.

Final blow: no good brother is happy than his sister uses Windows 95,
no good father is happy than his daughter already knows the MS logo.
I do not want to prolongate that fact by allowing distribution power
plays interfzere with the decisions.

That is the reason I wanted an exam, for now only Rick has made a
serious attempt to pass it.

> > 
> > Now I pose an hypothesis: at presnt times Debian is less user friendly
> > than RedHat.  Please do not start telling me than Debian is better or
> > more integrated, I concede on this, I am speaking about user
> > friendliness.  Accept my hypothesis and follow me.
> > 
>   I wouldn't dream on counter argueing that... because its true, AFAIK.
> 
>   Your arguements are very good... and to the point.
> 
>   Wether we choose to go from RH, or from Debian is not really a question
> of user-friendlyness.  It's a question of the system layout.  What version
> of Init, we'll start with, the place and position of programs both system
> and user.
> 

It is a question of how much work we will have to do, and more
important how much work we will have to do alone, because until we are
not better than Redhat at user friendliness we cannot make a release
and until we make a release we will work alone.

>   The user friendly software, wether they are Debian, RH, Caldera or Suse
> are all equally available at equal level whatever the Base.  And I agree
> with you on, that we should take as much of the user friendly stuff from
> the given distributions.
> 

More work to make it fit in Debian and much of the software avilable
in Debian cannot be used in SEUL without reworking.  The first time I
tried Debian I hoped to find a distrib who would allow me to "Bring
Linux to the workers", I suffered some hard blows like Dselect, the
kernel not optimized for people who don't want or can't recompile, the
fact than I was dropped unto TWM despite installing other WMs, and
then there thewas the final blow than made me mkfs the Debian
partition.

I started Emacs (yes my sister would not use it) it covered all the
scren and in adition it was _ugly_.  That was when I lost the tiny
hope I still had on Debian.  The packager had been unable to figure
than an ugly app would give to the user (specially unexperinced users)
the same impression than an unpainted car: unfinshed work.  Moreover
an end user cannot customize so he must get something good out of the
box.  I agree Emacs users are supposed to be able to customize.  But
you agree than perhaps the boss would prefer have them doing some real
work.


Until Debian people learns than a kernel is made to _not_ be
recompiled, than there are people who _need_ wysywyg word processors,
than apps are not made tro bze customized and so on, Debian is a dead
end for SEUL.  In December we will still trying to catch up with RH
and we still be unable to release.  I forgot in December we will be
contending with RH6 and than until we release we don't get help.

RH has not targetted end users but corporate users.  A sysadmin
RTFMing costs 150 to 200$ a day to the company employing it.  A week
RTFMing and Linux costs more than NT.  So RH, and Caldera, and Suse
have tried to ship distributions who can be used out of the box and
avoid people too much RTFMing.  And that makes them a lot nearer to
our goal than Debian.  Look at the Debian kernel and you will see than
the packager has not tried to avoid kernel recompilings: minimal
networking to begin with.  And that is only an example of a general
attitude who permeates all the Debian distribution ready to be
customized, not ready to be used.

-- 
			Jean Francois Martinez

==================== The Linux.  Use the Linux, Luke! =======================

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