Fw: Re: [seul-edu] Language to teach 10 year olds

[Douglas Loss <dloss@suscom.net>]

On Mon, 16 Jul 2001, owner-seul-edu@seul.org wrote:

> From: Mike Wohlgemuth <shred@m67.sail.leon.k12.fl.us>
> Subject: Re: [seul-edu] Language to teach 10 year olds
> To: seul-edu@seul.org
> 
> Us Mike's have to stick together ...
> 
> I taught school for 15 years and I think you all are
> generalizing too much
> .... In any given classroom you have a wide range of skill
> sets ... from kids
> who get a lot out of theory and advanced topics, to those who
> just need
> directions on "how to do" something ... even if they have
> already been
> "weeded out" for a high level class ...
> 
> The nice thing about html, php, and asp is that you can
> provide the
> flexibility needed for almost all of those learning varieties.
> The kids who
> don't think as abstractly as others can write simple html,
> php, and asp.
> Your abstract thinkers can go off to the races integrating
> databases (did I
> here someone say "SQL"?) and complex algorithims .... which,
> it just so
> happens is extremely marketable in today and tomorrow's ( ---
> RedHat just
> invested oogles in trying to get into the big boy database
> market with
> PostreSQL) ...
> 
> this is a nice discussion ... time for me to go to work ...
> today I do
> consulting work writing asp/html/SQL  applications for
> businesses
>  $100/hour ;} )  ... i.e. I think the market exists ....
> 
> mike
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Hall" <admin@mulga.com.au>
> To: <seul-edu@seul.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 5:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [seul-edu] Language to teach 10 year olds
> 
> 
> > G'day again:
> >
> > I don't see why this has to be an either/or kind of debate.
> > I believe that a language like PHP (and probably others)
> > is both a good language for teaching general concepts,
> programming logic,
> > basic principles, problem solving, etc, etc
> > *and* a practical real life language, not necessarily for
> making money,
> > but for doing real work in the real world.
> >
> > For those who don't know it, the syntax is fairly similar to
> C but it
> doesn't
> > require tedious memory management, variable typing,
> compiling etc.
> > It does have all the usual statements, operators, functions
> etc etc.
> > Personally, I find it easier than Python do to data-driven
> web stuff.
> >
> > It can be used to quickly produce powerful web applications
> and I
> > could think of many projects that a Year 6 class could
> attack with gusto
> using
> > it. It is entirely web-centric and I don't think the web is
> going away
> anywhere
> > fast in the next 10 years.
> >
> > Mind you, just because I like PHP doesn't mean it's for
> everyone ... :-)
> >
> > Mick
> >
> > On Mon, 16 Jul 2001, Cees de Groot wrote:
> > > Chris Hedemark <chris@yonderway.com> said:
> > > >I occaisionally hire high school students for some
> programming work.
> Nobody
> > > >is going to get a job with smalltalk or some other
> classroom-only
> language
> > > >as their core competency.  Show me strength in perl,
> python, C, tcl,
> etc. if
> > > >you want to actually have an after-school job, summer
> job, or half-day
> > > >mentorship during the school year.
> > > >
> > > ..and then send the Smalltalkers to me - contrary to what
> you seem to
> believe,
> > > iit's everything but a classroom-only language.
> > >
> > > But still, I'm appalled at the point that many seem to be
> making here: a
> > > school is there to teach kids practical stuff so they can
> go out and
> earn
> > > money as quickly as possible. I think that a school needs
> to teach kids
> > > learning, not knowledge (apart from some basic knowledge).
> If they learn
> > > how to learn and how things work and relate, they'll get
> the knowledge
> > > together when they need it. Teaching programming should be
> done in the
> > > same fashion - help them understand what a computer is
> about, what you
> > > can do with it, what sort of ways there are to tell a
> computer to do its
> > > job, etcetera. If they are fed the basis (hands-on, yes,
> so they don't
> > > get bored) they'll have the material on-board to expand
> their knowledge
> > > and the languages they understand all by themselves.
> > >
> > > But if you just want to make sure that they land an easy
> summer job,
> hey,
> > > tech them Visual Basic or Java.
> > >
> > > For me, the primary discussion should be what educational
> value a
> language
> > > posesses (I've made my point - Squeak Smalltalk). If this
> happens to be
> a
> > > popular industry language so that kids can have summer
> jobs with it -
> great!
> > > But that should *never* be an a-priori decision factor.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Cees de Groot               http://www.cdegroot.com
> <cg@cdegroot.com>
> > > GnuPG 1024D/E0989E8B 0016 F679 F38D 5946 4ECD  1986 F303
> 937F E098 9E8B
> > --
> > Michael Hall
> > mulga.com.au
> > admin@mulga.com.au
> > ph/fax (+61 8) 8953 1442
> > ABN 94 885 174 814
> 
> 
-- 
Doug Loss           Advertisements contain the only truths
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