Re: RFC - first batch of OGRE images

[Steve Baker <sjbaker1@airmail.net>]

Mark Collins wrote:

> ANother eurpoean rating system is the ELSPA one. This is quite good, if not a
> little vague. It consists of a 4 boxeson the back of the back shoing several
> age ranges (3-10, 11-14, 15-17, 18+), and each box has a tick or a cross next
> to it.

Yes - they all seem to boil down to the same basic premise that you can reduce
the problem to a small number of simple age ranges.
 
> > On an international basis I think the UK scheme has some similar problems
> > to the american one, in particular the problem that different cultures
> > thing that different things are suitable for different ages.
> 
> You will run into problems with whatever ratings you use, as cultural
> standards are different all over the world.

Yes - exactly.  So you are left with two options:

1) To use age ranges and say "bad luck" to countries where those are not
   the cultural norms.

2) To use detailed (but still subjective) measures of: Bad Language,
   Violence, Sex, Bigotry, defamation-of-religion-#N...

The problem with (1) is that it over-simplifies the problems and only
works for *some* cultures.

The problem with (2) is that people probably won't take the time to
read all the definitions of each of the terms used for each measure and
parents can't just quickly glance at the icon and say "Oh-oh - I don't
thing little Johnnie should be playing this".

Also, with (2), where do you stop?  In some cultures, seeing a cow being
squashed by a ten ton weight is more troublesome than seeing a human
being squashed...because cows are sacred and humans arent...in other
countries, there is something about cows that makes them just plain
funny.  That's really something that's impossible to resolve.  There
are thousands of cultural and religious taboos in the world and short
of enumerating them all, we can't really do a perfect job.

Then it also depends on the individual.  We have lots of friends with
children the exact same age as my kid.  Some of those children behave
like they were 5 years older, some like they are younger.  You can't
stick a stake in the ground and say "On your 13th birthday, it's OK
for you to see blood spurting everywhere - the day before, it isn't".

Hence, I'd really like to stick with the ESRB rating scheme - it's
VERY simple - Everyone, Teenagers, Mature Teens and Adults.  You get
to choose what's meant by that and as far as most USERS of the standard
are concerned, it's left deliberately vague...you know that if you have
a 10 year old, you can buy 'E' games without any worries, you have to
look carefully at 'T' games to see if then fit your personal concerns
and you know that 'M' and 'AO' games are certainly out of the question.

Graphically, it's simple to apply - you just need to show that one letter
clearly - not a bunch of check marks or bar graphs.

> To take an example, recently in
> the UK there was a kick-ass comedy series shown about a group of Teachers.
> 
> Things it depicted the teachers doing: Sharing spliffs with students, sharing
> spliffs with police officers, students having sex (well, that was implied,
> but it was still there). I've had some contact with many US people, and
> chances are, they would be outraged by such a show.
> 
> Here in the UK, however, it was so damned popular... (can't wait for the new
> series)

Well, the US has a WIDE variation in that respect. "Teachers" hasn't made it over
here yet - but "Absolutely Fabulous" did - it has sex, drugs, alcohol and more
and it shows regularly on the Comedy Channel and on BBC-in-America...it's very
popular - but that's not to say that a large number of people aren't outraged
by it.  I bet the show you describe has quite a few detractors in the UK too.


I'd say that for computer games, the exact same standards would work well in
(at least) the whole of North America and most of Europe (maybe not in Scandanavia)
- also Australia, Canada, etc.  I imagine it would be OK in most South American
countries and the only places we'd run into problems would be African and Asian
countries where their religions tend to apply moral codes that seem very different
to those of the rest of the world (and to each other).

> > In the UK an 18 year old has the full rights of an adult, so 18 is the same
> > as Adults Only.
> 
> Steve is actually English, so I expect he allready knows this...

Yes, I am. I lived most of my life in UK but I've been here in the deepest
'Bible-Belt America' for nearly 10 years now - so I *think* I've grokked both UK and US
cultures.  I spent a lot of time in France, Germany and the Netherlands and I have
lots of relatives in Australia and NewZealand - so I have a reasonable feeling
for their cultures too (my wife is French BTW).

[But as for what games rating system would work in Nigeria, India, SaudiArabia, China,
North Korea, etc...I have *NO* idea.]

People in all those North/South American/European countries would have no trouble
understanding the concept of 'Everyone/Teens/Mature/Adult' and translating that
into age ranges appropriate for their own culture (and more importantly) their
own specific children.  They would certainly translate them differently in
these places - as you point out, an 18 year old is treated as fully adult in
UK - but isn't allowed to purchase alcohol in the US until 21 (for example),
so a game that somehow involved a lot of binge drinking should be 'AO' rated
and UK people see that as "18 or over" and Americans can see it as "21 or over".
(Although how the heck you stop someone who's married with children at 18
from downloading an OpenSourced game that's "inappropriate" is anyone's guess!)

That's why I'm against specific numerical age ranges...at least in the iconography
of the rating system - it's just too precise. This rating thing isn't a scientific
procedure and it's a good rule never to display more precision than you compute...

   Captain:  "Spock - what is the probability of us making it off this
              planet alive?"
   Spock:    "98.564% against Sir."
   Captain:  "Well, that's just a chance we're going to have to take."

We perhaps need to write something specific about ages in the 'specification'
document - but most end users are only going to focus on that single word
"Everyone" "Teen" "Mature" or "Adult"...and I think that's enough.

I maintain that keeping it simple gives this the best chance of working and
being adopted successfully.  Since by far the most OpenSource software comes
out of USA, UK, Germany, Australia and Brazil, that an ESRB system (or one
very like it) would stand the best chance of being adopted.  If other cultures
need a rating system, let them define one and try to get it adopted.

----------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------------
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