Re: major problem + game idea

[Erik <br0ke@math.smsu.edu>]

On 28-Dec-1999 Bjarke Hammersholt Roune wrote:
>> zzt is the first ansi gane creation system with a simple programming
>> language name zzt-oop it so simple even a baby can program robots in the
>> games you make heres a example for a robot program.
>> 
>> :touch a label when you touch a robot with this labal it wil do what
>> ever you tell it to
>> walk n Walks north
>> end
>> that is a simple your first robot program you can also make enemys just
>> as easy  just 2 are 3 more lines
>>
> Having a programming language that enables you to just have you robots
> walk around isn't terribly exciting.
> 
> Now, you did say that was just a simple example, but in order for what
> you describe to be very usefull in the creation of fun games (or is the
> programming of the robots the game itself?), you do need a *quite*
> complicated language.
> 
> However, if you restrict yourself to just two word commands, i.e. the
> first word being some kind of action and the second word being
> where/how/in what direction/etc. to do that action, you won't get
> particularly fun interactions between these robots.
> 

(note: I'm gonna yabber cuz I just finished a class which covered this stuff
and the professor didn't seem to be completely full of bs... he had movies that
backed him up... :)
actually, 2 word recognition is a critical base for linguistic skills. All
sentances (in all languages) have 2 components; a subject and a verb. All
children learn language the same way (language as a concept, not a specific
incarnation) and in the first 3 years of life

        1) single word: the baby starts building a crude vocabulary and
                communiting their thought in single memes.
        2) two word (this is usually 18mo-2yr): phrases like "give car". Later
                in this stage, negation is learned (terrible twos?) "no sleep", 
                "no eat", "no go", etc...
        3) complex speech (3+ yrs old): stringing together longer sentances,
                and auxillary speech (like "I be three", the concept of
                'exists' or 'existing as' is learned.). 

</BS>

from a programming/ai/recognition standpoint, mastering the two word phase is
critical before moving on to the complex phase. The problem with AI is it
requires a lot of the first phase (computers still don't seem able to
understand concepts :). Sentence recognition, like in this scripting, can be
done fairly well I think, and he's making the right steps. Since words can be
coded in (or entered in a database), so given an unambigious sentance, an
accurate symantic can be constructed. And given an unambigious symantic, an
accurate sentence can be built. Some heuristics can be brought in to take some
of the edge off of the requirement that syntax and symantics be unambigious. 

I'm not saying that it'd be easy, the tokenizing would probably be tricky, and
all the semantics would have to be entered by hand. Writing the routines to
parse sentences would also be tricky, especially for a language like english,
which ties semantic meaning to the order of the words (as opposed to say latin,
which the same symantic can be communicated without word order having too much
importance).

It sounds to me like bill is working at the right level and in the right
direction, to me.

> What if I wanted to program a robot to walk around at random, looking
> for other robots, and when it finds them, do something random?
> 
> How will you make it possible to create robots that do something
> intelligent (that's when it gets fun)? 
> 
>> megazeux is the next ansi  game creation system zzt is it preacessor
>> opps typo  it has more color and commands to make ansi game creation
>> even easyer i think i might become a programmer on megazeux 2.7 even tho
>> the creator stop working on people took the soruce and they work on it i
>> might be the on who will be part of the work on version  2.7 are 3.0  it
>> for dos.
>>
> Well, I'd love to comment, but unfurtunately I cannot understand what
> you are trying to say here.
> 
> Now, I realise learning a language is hard (you seem to know the words
> well enough, though), and learning how to spell in it can be even
> harder. There are, however, a single thing you *can* do right now to
> make it easier for people to understand what you write: punctuation.
> 
> To use punctuation is to use the signs , and .
> 
> Now, the comma (,) can be a bit complicated, so don't bother with that
> (it isn't that important anyway). However, the full stop (.) is pretty
> easy to master. You use it whenever you have finished a sentence.
> Whenever you would normally have a semi-long pause in normal speech, you
> will want to put a full stop (.) instead when writing.
> 
> If you want examples of this, well, take a look what I just wrote.
> 
> If english is a language you expect to use alot in the future, I really
> do think it would be worth it for you to work with you english grammar
> and spelling, along with the punctuation.
> 
> Oh yeah, a spell-checker would probably help alot, if you are willing to
> take that extra minute.
> 

I agree with bjarke on this point. One of the most difficult aspects of working
on a project with several people is accurate effecient communication. While the
internet allows communication in a very expedient way to a global team, a lot
is lost. Communicating something like a figure-8 manuever that fighter pilots
do would be an ugly hairy hard to comprehend mess in text, but can easily be
communicated with a hand motion (or a model on a stick).

>> mega zzt 3d 1.0 will be my  ansi game creation system and will be made
>> after i relearn programming i know how c works and everything i just
>> forggot how to program ill relearn soon ,
>>
> Forgot how to program?
> 
> You say you know how C works, but you have forgotten it?
> 
> At the time that you did remember how C worked, how well did you know
> that? I mean, did you know how the standard C library works? Pointers?
> 
> Creating a game can be a quite hard undertaking, even for experienced
> programmers.
> 

I'd say games are about the hardest class of programs to code

> Now, you say you want to do something text based (as far I understand
> it), which probably is a good idea, since you then don't have to deal
> with alot of the really hairy stuff, like graphics and effeciency
> (mostly).
> 
> But still, you'll need some kind of parser to get your program to
> understand your robot programming language, and text parsers aren't
> exactly simple to do, atleast not if you want to get any further than
> the two word commands, and, well, perhaps you should try to do something
> easier as your first project?
> 
> Tic tac toe is one possibility. Chess is another. Tic tac toe is
> sufficiently simple that you could create an artificial intelligence for
> it that cannot lose (that'll impress your friends (Tip: you need to look
> 4 turns into the future if you take the brute force method)). Chess is
> more challenging to just get working since there are several kinds of
> different playing pieces that do different stuff (don't try to do an
> artificial intelligence for that, though). Any fairly simple game will
> do.
> 
>> after that i will get a team of
>> programmers from ehre to make it there will be screen shots and even a
>> demo trailer before i make the game makeing system.
>> 
> This might sound terribly unfair, but I just don't think you'll be able
> to find alot of people with your english skills. Cummunication between
> people over E-mail is very hard even when everyone speaks very good
> english...
> 
> Another thing is that if you do decide to go ahead with this, I would
> advice you, and anyone in your situation, to make a small program
> (nothing fancy) that proves that A) you know what you're doing B) you
> are serious about it and B) your idea is feasible. That only applies so
> much more to you, since your less-than-perfect english skills easily can
> give people the impression that you are either a troll or not really
> serious.
> 

>From my personal experience, and hearing the testimony of others, it's
virtually impossable to assemble a team that actually does something without any
work to show them (easy to get a bunch of people to join a mail list and bs,
but no code ever happens... destined vaporware?) and even if you have code to
show, very little is contributed (and contributors often only drop in one patch
and disappear, there're rarely people who persist in helping you)

The project has a high geek factor if I understand it correctly, so it may
attract coders. Good luck with it, bill :)

        -Erik <erik@smluc.org> [http://math.smsu.edu/~br0ke]

The opinions expressed by me are not necessarily opinions. In all
probability, they are random rambling, and to be ignored. Failure to ignore
may result in severe boredom or confusion. Shake well before opening. Keep
Refrigerated.