Re: [Computerbank] The future of Linux on the desktop

[bob parker <bob_parker@dodo.com.au>]

On Tue, 8 Apr 2003 01:48, Mark Clohesy wrote:
>
> Second yes I am very sorry for not making a definitive line between end
> users and users that are involved in installing administering computers
> even those MS ones

Don't worry I've fallen into the same trap time and again. It's just that 
there is so much propaganda about Linux not being ready for the desktop user 
and it is just not true. Abiword or KWord are no harder to use than MsWord. 
Maybe easier for all I'd know, try mixing numbered and bulleted lists in 
MSWord to see what I mean. As for spreadsheets, I'd just about bet that 99.9% 
of them do nothing but total rows and columns, with maybe the odd bit of date 
arithmetic, so KSpread or Gnumeric cover the bases there. And there is always 
OpenOffice for those who miss waitng a week for a program to start. -:)

> > The majority of people who are quite competent to do word processing or
> > use
> > spreadsheets are no more competent to install Windows or Dos for that
> > matter
> > than they are to install a Linux distro.
>
> Whole heartdly agree, I know I get calls from said users
>
> > Secondly you speak as if Linux is something monolithic that takes the
> > same
> > amount of effort regardless of who packages it.
>
> Sorry to make that inferrance, I have tried to install Redhat... it didnt
> like me or maybe I am just destined to be a blithering windows user all
> my life

Must admit that I have been less than enthused about RH the odd time I tried 
it, though that was a version or 3 ago. I found Mandrake to be the gentlest 
intro to Linux although just like Windows it does not have a good upgrade 
path. You really have to save all of your data and re-install. Maybe later 
versions are better.

Debian once installed can be painlessly upgraded over the life of the box but 
boy it can be hard to install. It was comparatively easy on my box with 
nvidia os driver but I just installed an old P2 with S3TrioV64+ today and I 
am having interesting times to say the least. After failing miserably to get 
X running from the Debian install I ended up copying the XF86Config-4 file 
that I got automagically out of booting Knoppix earlier. So Inow have X but 
the display is 'different' to say the least.

One thing about Debian, you have excellent support from the 'debian-user' 
list and the only price you have to pay is to show that at least you tried to 
read the man pages or whatever.

But if you can survive the pc world for a number of years I doubt that you 
are destined to be Bill's friend forever. One thing I have to thank W98 for 
was my decision to use Linux instead.

> > Maybe it's harder on the older h/w, I just don't know.
>
> Thats why I want to use Linux, I am tired of the instablity
>
Persistence and you will get there.

>
> Okay granted there is hardware that does not work in all flavours of
> windows/linux take your pick, but when I go out and buy hardware that is
> listed on the :Linux site/Windows site to suit that particular version of
> a particular OS then i expect it to work, I dont mind installing a driver
> or application to make it work just as I have to in windows, but to have
> tp spend an hour or more editing files, enabling IDE-SCSI emulation, that
> I cant understand, again maybe destined to remain a windows idiot

Nah, the ide-scsi business is counter-intuitive and I believe it's destined 
for the scrap heap in the 2.6 kernel. It is easy once you know but quite time 
consuming to get to know.

>
> > I think that after 16 years in h/w, I can only suppose that you had a
> > fairly
> > heavy involvement with Windows. Maybe expecting that you will as
> > comfortable
> > in Linux as in Windows after a couple of months is unreasonable.
>
> I manged to pick up Novell in  a weekend
>
I've never had the pleasure, though I was an admin in such an envirionment I 
was in a totally managed situation. Show 'em the any key and reinstall W3.1 
regularly. Call the engineer when some h/w died was about it.

> > Certainly I find that after 9 months experience (very little of it doing
> > installs on a large range of hardware) I still have a hell of a lot to
> > learn.
> >
> > Generally when I do not get what I need from a HOWTO it is because I have
> > not
> > read it with enough attention.
> >
> > So if you find a defective howto, why not just weigh in with a
> > correction?
> > That is how everything in OS was produced.
>
> I would if I knew the solution, then I wouldnt have a problem and I would
> certainly let others know about it
>
> > > The OSS community prides itself  on how it is not limited to corporate
> > > decision from a higher power to be (read Gates) yet they cant get
> > > together and just make my scanner work when I plug it in, or just make
> > > my burner work.
> >
> > And the average Windows user can do this, come on. Ok maybe the burner
> > but
> > forget the scanner.
>
> The average windows user may not be able to open a case to install a
> burner, but my wife who has no computer knowledge until 2 years ago, a
> windows OEM user if there was ever one, managed after reading the
> instructions to get our scanner working, went to website (we didnt have
> the cd) dloaded driver installed it (harder then apt-get sane) plug it in
> to a free USB port and it worked Suprise suprise

She's no average Win user, ipso facto -:)

>
> why forget the scanner under linux , it is a modern one, USB that is
> listed as being completly Linux compatable, okay I dont mind installing
> sane, dloading drivers, all as the site told me but it still wont work
>
> > > Yes Linux has moved forward on the desktop, yes it is starting to make
> > > headway against other systems, but it does have a way to go
> > >
> > > and yes this is MY Opinion which makes me an individual..
> >
> > Yes it can get easier to install - try Knoppix for one example.
> > But once installed it's no harder than Windows for most jobs.
>
> Knoppix balks at all my hardware which is less then 6 months old, it
> doesnt like the scanner, the burner or the multihead display, Hey granted
> neither does win XP (only the multi head it likes the scanner burner) so
> I dont like knoppix either, Hmm maybe this is saying lets go back to the
> Typewriter at least it worked all the time

There is a 3.2 Knoppix just out. I have 3.1 and it's sweet as a bun on my 2yo 
box, also no problems on the P2 I'm playing with nor on a P3 I've tried it on.
Maybe 3.2 is new enough to cope with your h/w. I'll be trying to grab a copy 
but I'm on dial up so it takes a while.

>
>  (DVD ripping possibly excepted).
>
> Well actually just watching DVD's unless you want to break the law, but
> that isnt a fault of the programmers ect but of the film companies so no
> hard feelings about that one to Linux, just the film giants

mplayer in Linux is just fine. I get a few artifacts on divx stuff at 850 meg 
Duron. Have not installed a dvd reader yet but apparently the divx format is 
the most taxing on your cpu.

>
> At that Im going to end my part of this discussion, as I agreed it is an
> opion, it is how I feel, it may not be right, it may be blatently out of
> line but it was my feelings that was all, thanks for the feedback, I am
> going to keep reading this howto and see what I missed......

Yeah persistence is everything with this stuff.

Good luck
Bob
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